EP269: Is AI Making Us Dumber? Tim Shea Thinks So

Neil Twa (00:01.036) Hey guys, welcome back. A fun guest here today. I enjoyed our conversation when we did our pre-call and so I asked him to come on here and do a real call with me. So Tim, hope you're having a great time today wherever you're hanging out at. I'm having a great time about here and it's not so sunny in Los Angeles.

Tim Shea (00:14.63) having a great time about here and it's not so sunny Los Angeles it's usually a bit sunnier in April but having a great day thanks so much for having me on

Neil Twa (00:21.075) Yeah, appreciate it. Well, I wasn't sure if you're traveling or if you're still back in California today. Do you much traveling?

Tim Shea (00:27.98) you know, I do a lot of traveling to San Francisco and New York. got a couple of clients and a couple of activities out there. mostly just keeping it, you know, the, the COVID routine has sort of stuck and everyone's doing zoom still and, and, you know, remote work is the default. but getting on the road and in person with people as much as possible.

Neil Twa (00:33.71) and a couple activities out there. Mostly just keeping it, you know, the COVID routine has sort of stuck and everyone's doing Zoom still. Remote work is the fault. But getting on the road and then first with people as much as possible. Yeah, that's awesome. Do you have any particular places you like to go, like travel or when business or any particulars? I've got some.

Tim Shea (00:52.737) Um, I've got some fun travel coming up. I'm going to a wedding in London, just outside of London, which is super exciting. We're taking the kids out. Um, I, I'll tell you, I grew up in Boston. I've been in LA for 25 years. I love going to New York and it, New York, depending on the person you're talking to, bring opinions on New York city, but, oh my God, I love it.

Neil Twa (01:04.59) I've been in LA for 25 years.

Neil Twa (01:10.026) depending on the person you're talking to, bring opinions on New York City. I love it. No, I love traveling to New York as well. In fact, I almost moved there in the past, a long time ago. I lived in Manhattan for about eight months and then almost bought a brownstone on the side. I loved it. Old story, flew back to the Midwest, met a girl. So New York wasn't no longer on the radar, but I always enjoyed it, enjoyed the energy and the fun. Is there particular things you like to go to do or go to Broadway or the particular areas you like to see?

Tim Shea (01:24.144) Yeah.

Tim Shea (01:28.796) There you go.

Tim Shea (01:39.362) I love the West Village in Soho. If I could have a second place, I would have to make a substantial amount more money to get a place out there. But I love it out there. And then maybe side note, a good friend and I have a new tradition where we go and see like a SEC football game, like, know, during college football season. Both of us went to really small colleges, so we didn't get that experience. So we've been to like Baton Rouge and we've been to Athens, Georgia and

Neil Twa (01:39.874) love the West Village in Soho. If I could have a second place, I would have to make a substantial amount more money to get a place out there. yeah, these days. I love it out there. And then maybe side note, good friend and I have a new tradition where we go and see like a SEC football game, like, know, during college football season. Fun. Most us went to really small colleges, so we didn't get that experience. So we've been to like Baton Rouge and we've been to Athens, Georgia and...

Tim Shea (02:08.378) Alabama's on the and Arkansas are both on the radar in Nebraska, Kentucky. We have a big list of bucket list spots to go check on a big game.

Neil Twa (02:08.622) Alabama's on the, and Arkansas are both on the radar in Nebraska. There we go. A list of, a bucket list of spots to go check out at the game. Fun. Yeah, Baton Rouge is not quite the same as New York, but definitely on the, I remember a trip down there not long ago and it was the first time I've ever seen, you know, water hit the sidewalk and just evaporate into more humidity. That was quite fun. I was like, wow, this is not a place for me. I need somewhere a little more moderate, temperature wise, et cetera.

Tim Shea (02:29.202) Ha

Neil Twa (02:37.544) California is very different, out there. And you've spent 25 years there, so I'm assuming you love it and enjoy it and have a good time there. Well, one of the things you do like geeking out on is data science. From what we talked about earlier in what does that mean exactly in today's world with the changing AI and all the systems and things that are happening? What does that actually look like? You know, I've got a question in many forums recently. I am not happy about it. I will say my parents from one of the

Tim Shea (02:42.354) another.

Tim Shea (02:58.034) You know, I've got that question in many forums recently. I, um, and I'm not happy about it. Uh, I will say my parents are one of the people, my wife is among them who will ask, gosh, I don't really understand fully what you do for a living. As the main salesperson of my company, it's like very frustrating feedback because you want people to understand fundamentally what you do. And, um, we're just on some calls even as early as today where.

Neil Twa (03:07.278) people, my wife is among them, who will ask, gosh, I don't really understand fully what you do for a living. As the main salesperson of my company, it's like very, very frustrating feedback because you want people to understand. Right. Absolutely. And we just want some calls even as early as today where we think we understand our business really, really well. We do understand our business really well. And so we've got like a really crisp elevator pitch that describes it, but there's so much on.

Tim Shea (03:27.078) We think we understand our business really, really well. We do understand our business really well. And so we've got like a really crisp elevator pitch that describes it, but there's so much unpacking that needs to be done for someone that is not an expert in our field. And I think a part of the game of being a founder and a salesperson is being able to explain it in really lay person terms. like data science is a thing that maybe seems kind of scary and maybe seems kind of like I would wear like a, like a lab coat to work and like a little,

Neil Twa (03:36.93) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Tim Shea (03:56.24) microscope at my desk. But fundamentally, you know, we're just trying to like use data to help people see their business more clearly. You know, oftentimes maybe in a way that they have never seen the business before, to be able to provide someone a new lens on their business where they maybe think that it is a stalemate. They're running some successful ecommerce business, and they think that, you know, their profit margin is a stalemate, or their LTV is a stalemate. And we can come in and say, well, if you turn it

Neil Twa (04:06.399) in a way that they have never seen the business before. To be able to provide someone a new lens on their business where they maybe think that it is a stalemate. They're running some successful e-commerce business and they think that their profit margin is a stalemate or their LTV is a stalemate. We can come in and say, if turn the problem kind of like on its side a little bit, it's actually a whole way we can be able to blow our revenue targets out of the water. But it does require a little bit of that.

Tim Shea (04:26.034) problem kind of like on its side a little bit. There's actually a whole way we might be able to blow our revenue targets out of the water. But it does require a little bit of that, you know, seeing things in a different way. People, I never heard data science described in that way. I'm like, well, that's part of what the selling job is, is describing it in a new way.

Neil Twa (04:36.523) you know, seeing things in different way. Yeah. never heard data science described in that way. I'm like, well, that's part of what the selling job is, is describing it in a new way. Yeah. My partner often says that the numbers tell the tale. And as you get into the numbers, it explains the business and the model of basically what you're doing. And at the end of the day, you know, profit and loss is the game. When people ask me similar, what do I do? I kind of just go, I'm an e-commerce and like, what kind of e-commerce? It's like, boy, here we go.

Where do I go with this? Usually I try to just dummy it down to I sell physical products like pizza makers. like, you sell pizza makers? That's really cool. Yeah, I just try to find something that's common. I sell an ice cream machine. Really? I love ice cream. Like, yeah, that's kind what I do. It's really simplified. Never that easy to explain it in the e-commerce world, especially entrepreneurial world. I mean, I've been at it for 19, 20 years. How about you? How long have you been at it?

Tim Shea (05:05.49) Ha ha.

Tim Shea (05:33.946) Yeah, I graduated from college in 99 moved out to LA just afterwards so I've been in the game for 25 26 years been in ecommerce advertising technology entrepreneurship for a really long time

Neil Twa (05:36.653) I moved out to LA just afterwards, so I've been in the game for 25, 26 years. in e-commerce, advertising, technology, entrepreneurship for a really long time. Yeah. Long enough to know that the game is always about pivoting, right? And agility and changing times. How does that, mean, DTC wasn't really a thing 25 years ago.

People just called it direct marketing and they didn't really understand what it meant to be direct to consumer per se as much Because we didn't have the systems and ecosystems we have nowadays with social media and other things where you can get into millions of customers very fast For those opportunities. What has been some of the major pivots you've seen in that 25 years?

Tim Shea (06:17.746) Mm-hmm.

Tim Shea (06:22.522) I mean, it's funny thinking through the lens of AI now. Everyone says, my God, this is the biggest innovation, the biggest disruption that we've seen in maybe all of our adult lives. But it's interesting to have been through a bunch of these waves before. Dotcom was a thing, if you can believe it, a time before everyone having a website.

Neil Twa (06:27.909) the biggest innovation, the biggest disruption that we've seen in, you know, in maybe all of our adult lives. But it's interesting to have been through a bunch of these waves before. Dotcom was a thing at a time before everyone having like a website. Social and mobile was a huge revelation. You imagine like ordering things on your phone and watching content on your phone was unheard of for many years. And I always loved the big data track. No one uses this term anymore.

Tim Shea (06:43.746) social and mobile was a huge revelation. We imagine like ordering things on your phone or watching content on your phone was unheard of for many years. And I always loved the big data track. No one uses this term anymore, but there was a time where everyone said, gosh, we can collect all this data about all this stuff. The more data we collect, the better, the more line of sight we will have on things. And the reality was, is it just causes such a big mess. So I have all these companies.

Neil Twa (06:57.737) There was a time where everyone said, gosh, we can collect all this data about all this stuff. The more data we collect, the better, the more light of sight we will have on things. And the reality was just cause such a big mess. All these companies, 100 % of my clients, they've got their data stuck in 10, 20, 30 different platforms. Every platform tells us slightly different puzzle piece, slightly different piece of their.

Tim Shea (07:13.97) 100 % of my clients, they've got their data stuck in 10, 20, 30 different platforms. Every platform tells a slightly different puzzle piece, slightly different piece of their overall story. And it's created this nightmare where now they have to bring all that data out of those systems into a central database, then model it out, then build the dashboard, then train all the teams on how to use the dashboard.

Neil Twa (07:27.085) There's a real story. And it's created this nightmare where now they have to bring all that data out of those systems into a central database, then model it out, then build the dashboard, then train all the teams on how to use the dashboard. And you're like, where was this thing where big data was going to save all of us? was going to make it much more Right. Now we're just trying to write exec summaries.

Tim Shea (07:43.024) And you're like, where was this thing where big data was going to save all of us, and was going to make our lives easier?

Neil Twa (07:50.734) That's certainly what it gets down to. Because it's like, okay, we're trying to just, in one section, we're trying to determine how retail is impacting online. And then we're trying to determine where online impact is overflowing across channels, say from TikTok to Amazon to Target to Walmart. We're trying to see how those different channels have packed the other ones and how much percentage of overflow is there on the additional channel. And of course, each of those channels have their own reporting, their own segmentation, their own.

Tim Shea (07:50.97) or just you play.

Neil Twa (08:16.601) use cases and SOPs. And it's like, now we're trying to combine it all the way down to the inventory level at the warehouse. So we're now upgrading the inventory management system to actually get the data we need to start combining that into real time outputs to all the channels. So yeah, it's quite a, it's quite an undertaking and it's quite an overhaul, but it's where scale and economy comes in efficiencies, by getting all that done. It's just a lot of work, man. That's right. That's right. And look, I think, you know, we're, living in this, this era of, of AI.

Tim Shea (08:38.834) That's right. That's right. And look, I think, you know, we're living in this era of AI, which I think is like the most poorly branded technology innovation in last five years.

Neil Twa (08:46.317) think it's like the most poorly branded technology innovation. What's the technology innovation? Things like Claude are just rolling over sasses like every day. It's like they're the giant Pac-Man just going around munching on everything every time you turn around. I was telling a colleague earlier today, I'm like, imagine if I told you I found this piece of software and what it does is you can talk to it. And it's kind of like a Google search, but it's if you could be a little bit loose. Right. can give you a

Tim Shea (08:59.238) You know, I was telling a colleague earlier today, I'd be like, imagine Neil, if I told you I'd found this piece of software and what it does is you can talk to it. And it's kind of like a Google search, but it's, you could be a little bit loose, looser from the hip. can give you longer form responses and you can actually tell it like, put it in a spreadsheet for me. Maybe writes a little bit of code. You'd be like, dude, that's awesome. I would love to try that piece of software. But they called it artificial intelligence.

Neil Twa (09:15.501) You can actually tell it like put it in a spreadsheet for me. Sure. Maybe writes a little bit of code You'd be like dude, that's awesome. I would love to try that piece of software Yeah, they call it artificial intelligence and it's it's certainly artificial. It's definitely not intelligent and Yeah, another one of these disruptions that's causing a big mess a lot of confusion. Yeah, you're just like can we just call it like a

Tim Shea (09:28.238) And it's, it's certainly artificial. It's definitely not intelligent. And, it's another one of these disruptions that's causing a big mess and a lot of confusion in the market. So you're just like, can we just call it like a, let's at least commit to rebranding it. Maybe it's just like a really convenient, helpful chatbot assistant. That might be a better way.

Neil Twa (09:40.738) Let's at least get to rebranding it. Maybe it's just like a really convenient, helpful chatbot assistant. Yeah, that's exactly it. It uses us a lot, doesn't it? And then to get what it needs, it uses us a lot. So it's not super intelligent. It can do things faster, which is kind of cool. I mean, it can actually put output faster and create cool things fast.

Then sometimes you get into the affect of using it and then you realize you went down a rabbit hole so far, you could have just bought the software or hired the service to do it anyways. And you're like, what did I end up building like a million tokens here to get through? That was a great learning curve and I still got not what I wanted out of it. So I guess we'll just go back to the service we were looking for. They call it a SaaSpocalypse, right? In some ways it is and certain industries are getting disrupted by its ability to create.

Tim Shea (10:18.268) That's it.

It is a bit of a sad apocalypse.

Neil Twa (10:28.621) That is for sure. But then there's the fundamentals. And the end of the day, we can't get past the fundamentals when it gets to the bottom line of the business. You just can't. And I find it fascinating. I don't know if you saw this the other day, but Gen Z is now the lowest IQ generation of every generation to date. We're actually going backwards. So I'm concerned that AI is making, and the systems that led to it are kind of making people dumber in the output, because it's the first generation that's never exceeded their previous generation.

So I hate to say it, man, we're Gen X, right? So we were the last generation to push the threshold, to see the 99 and dot com bubble, to see all that creativity, to see the way internet moved forward to today. But we created a crux of information and data and, you know, just a crutch, I think is the right word there, that this next generation apparently isn't benefiting from. So maybe we do need AI to run some of this and more of an intelligence level.

Tim Shea (11:24.178) You know, I certainly think what we need a lot more of is leadership. And I think, you know, customers come to me more and more, not so much to build dashboards or to do data science or to build data models. They certainly come to me for those things. But a lot of those conversations are like, we just need an adult in the room. We need someone to help people kind of upskill. I track, have a lot as people say, you know, it would be great.

Neil Twa (11:27.925) Yeah. I think, you know, customers come to me more and more, not so much to build dashboards or to do data science or to build data models. They certainly come to me for those things. A lot of those conversations are like, we just needed adults in the realm. Right. People kind of upskill. hmm. I have a lot of people say, you know, it would be great to help marketers, finance folks and operators. Yeah. Being data driven. But let's be fair to.

Tim Shea (11:50.15) to help marketers, finance folks and operators be more data driven, but let's be fair to them. We also need to upskill the data people, the technology people so that they can acquire the sort of finesse and the vocabulary to be invited back to a lot of those meetings, to be able to understand what it's like to be a marketer, what it's like to be in finance. And not everybody wants to hear all the super nerdy nuance of what you do. They just kind of want someone with a little bit of empathy.

Neil Twa (11:57.678) We also need to upskill the data people, the technology people, so that they can acquire this finesse in the vocabulary to be invited back to a lot of those meetings to be able to understand what it's like to be a marketer, what it's like to be in finance. And not everybody wants to hear all the super nerdy nuance of what we do. They just kind of want someone with a little bit of empathy and a little bit of domain knowledge about what they're going through. So think leadership has been a course that I've heard across the...

Tim Shea (12:19.314) and little bit of domain knowledge about what they're going through. So I think leadership has been a course that I've heard across the political spectrum and across the economic spectrum. That's what people are of like seeking out nowadays.

Neil Twa (12:26.251) Yeah, I could see that. Well, anytime a gray area, there's a there's a need for somebody to become a leader in change. And what we're looking at, well, we don't like components of AI that we agree on that we like other components that can allow it to work. But right now we're in this bit of quagmire in relationship to the

to the timeframe, I'd say it's somewhere between 99 and 2001, where everything like pushed so hard. And then there was this period of about two years where everybody just tried to figure out what they just got handed to them. And then from 2000 to 2005 or so, things started to change very rapidly in the application of the internet, its technology, computers and everything that really started to race forward. And then I don't think we saw that large of a change. I don't personally see that until mobile hit.

And then mobile really created that ability to take all that stuff in your pocket and go crazy with it. And then there was new leadership that raised out of that, that allowed, you know, mobile to become such a major important component of our everyday lives, literally. And now we're looking at that gray area in my world, where we see that there's going to need to be leadership over the next couple of years to, to allow this bubble to kind of go through its change and then figure out how you apply or what you apply or what you don't apply, or in some cases don't even use it at all.

if it doesn't make sense. And then we're going to see that in about two years. What are your thoughts on all

Tim Shea (13:54.898) There's so much to unpack there. I it's it's in a way it's never been easier for someone to create a new brand from scratch. Right, Neil, you and I can go into a garage this weekend. We can come out on Monday morning with a brand new brand, brand new physical products with built in distribution. We've got Facebook and Google and Tiktok. We've got Shopify and Amazon. We want to get into Sephora or Arowan.

Neil Twa (13:55.278) There's so much to unpack there. I it's in a way, it's never been easier for someone to create a new brand from scratch. Yeah, that's true. and I go into a garage this weekend, we can come out on Monday morning with a brand new brand, brand new physical product. We've built in distribution. We've got Facebook and Google and TikTok. We've got Shopify and Amazon. We want to get a Sephora or Air 1.

Tim Shea (14:24.39) We've got Salesforce, we've got Clevio, and so does everybody else. So not only is it easier for you and I to come to market, but all of a sudden we have like 10x the amount of competition out there. Now all the things that we used to do to get consumers to pay attention to us, that it needs to be an enormous effort to differentiate ourselves from everybody else. And the brand story is huge.

Neil Twa (14:25.041) Salesforce, we've got Clevio, and so does everybody else. So not only is it easier for you and I to come to market, but all of a sudden we have like 10x the amount of competition out there. Now all the things that we used to do to get consumers to pay attention to us, it needs to be an enormous effort to differentiate ourselves from everybody else. That brand, that brand story. The brand story is huge.

Tim Shea (14:54.208) Neil Twa (14:54.409) It is becoming bigger. It was quite a bit more here in the last five to 10 years roughly. And then we sort of went away with it for a little while. I don't know, maybe the last five, six, seven years or so we kind of went away from that. think everybody got confused after 2020 as to what to do and what not to do. And it was just kind of a race to get something done. But I think I feel that shift back that what you're saying is very astute, speaking from experience.

because I think you're right, anybody can go create those assets, can now throw up a website in a few minutes on a prompt, they can look like something they're not very quickly. But the difference is gonna be in the results, it's gonna be in the output, and as we're talking about here, it's gonna be the brand story. And I think those who are listening to this really need to understand, if you're building a product, you should be building the story with it. It's a huge affect. And where do you coach people on that? Where do you lead them in that?

Tim Shea (15:42.706) That's right.

Neil Twa (15:48.172) maybe first two or three steps for them to kind of understand what we're talking about here. Yeah, I look, you know, I'm not a not a brand marketer I'm not a creative director, but I will say like story and the true story is like a super important part of the equation I think many ways people are looking for meaning a lot of people but say like especially post-covid are sitting at home alone They're even guarded by messages from like every which way their their Instagram feed is filled with transactional

Tim Shea (15:51.578) Yeah, I look, you know, I'm not a brand marketer. I'm not a creative director, but I will say like story, you're mentioning story is like a super important part of the equation. I think in many ways people are looking for meaning a lot of people, let's say like, especially post COVID are sitting at home alone. They're being bombarded by messages from like every which way. Their Instagram feed is filled with transactional products, transactional brands.

Neil Twa (16:17.741) Yeah, right, Let's get this done. I think that there are lot of brands that are focusing on that story that brand universe says welcome to this This is whole lifestyle

Tim Shea (16:20.562) Click here, 10 % off, swipe your credit card, let's get this done. And I think that there are a lot of brands that are focusing on that story, that brand universe that says, welcome to this, you're into fitness. This is a whole lifestyle brand about wellness and mental wellbeing, or this is a brand about like effectiveness and precision. I think inviting people into those universes is part of the meaning creation process. It's what gets people to come back for a second purchase and...

Neil Twa (16:45.965) It's what gets people to come back for a second purchase and Ecom is something like, know, 80 % of customers only buy once. You know, so from a data perspective, we come in and we're like, hey, can we all agree that system-wide, every brand has this problem where 80 % of your customers churn out after the first purchase. And maybe you haven't given them anything to believe in.

Tim Shea (16:49.17) Ecom is something like, 80 % of customers only buy once. You know, so from a data perspective, we come in and we're like, hey, can we all agree that system wide, every brand has this problem where 80 % of your customers churn out after the first purchase. And maybe you haven't given them anything to believe in. You know, maybe what can we do to decrease that churn rate by 1 %?

Neil Twa (17:11.181) You know, maybe what can we do to decrease that churn rate by 1 %? Yeah. So I'm coming in with a crawl walk run strategy about like, let's figure out what are, you where's the water leaking out of the base? What are the unobvious ways that the business can be optimized? And can we, can we get everyone to agree like today is Tuesday and we're going to focus on increasing LTV or shortening the time between two purchases or like reducing the churn rate by.

Tim Shea (17:16.402) And so I'm coming in with a crawl walk run strategy about like, let's figure out what are, you know, where's the water leaking out of the base? What are the unobvious ways that the business could be optimized? And can we, can we get everyone to agree like today is Tuesday and we're going to focus on increasing LTV or shortening the time between two purchases or like reducing the churn rate by a half a percent, because that's going to have an outsized effect on our P and L.

Neil Twa (17:41.874) because that's going to have an outsized effect on our P &L. So just really sensible stuff, lot of blocking and tackling. Yeah. And that's definitely, there's two sides to that conversation. There's the, I'm started up, I'm interested in, can I get this going? And how do I build a brand narrative and compete against others? They can go do that in now a compressed timeframe with tools and technology. And those who are in the operational throw already looking to maximize revenue or obviously profitability.

Tim Shea (17:45.86) So just really sensible stuff a lot of locking and tackling

Neil Twa (18:07.805) And LTV is a great way to do that lifetime value just for those who didn't catch the LTV in case you're paying attention at home. You want to explain more about LTV to everybody real quick? Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, in many ways, LTV is just a number. You can also think of LTV as a story. So basically, LTV is like on average, how much money does a customer spend? How long do they stay engaged with your brand? And so it could be as simple as, you know, someone buys

Tim Shea (18:17.126) Yeah, absolutely. you know, in many ways, LTV is just a number. You can also think of LTV as a story. So basically, LTV is like, on average, how much money does a customer spend with you? How long do they stay engaged with your brand? And so it could be as simple as, know, someone buys shampoo at a grocery store. And the question is, well, how many more times will they buy from you? Are they going to buy just your brand? Are they going to buy what's on sale?

Neil Twa (18:37.333) shampoo at the grocery store and the question is how many more times will they buy from you? Are they going to buy just your brand? they going to buy what's on sale? But this measurement of how long they will stay with you and how much you can expect to make with that relationship over time is important because it affects how much you should spend to acquire them. So the smart growth folks will be like this ratio between LTV and CAC. How much am going to make over the course of a customer's lifetime versus

Tim Shea (18:46.922) But this measurement of how long they will stay with you and how much you can expect to make with that relationship over time is important because it affects how much you should spend to acquire them. So the smart growth folks will be like this ratio between LTV and CAC. How much am I going to make over the course of a customer's lifetime versus how much did I spend to acquire them and keep them is very, important. So oftentimes we'll sit down with customers and they'll say,

Neil Twa (19:07.245) how much they spend to acquire them and keep them is very, important. So oftentimes we'll sit down with customers and they'll say, Timon, we think our LT is $100. We could make $100 over the course of their customer's lifetime. we say, we guarantee you it's not $100 because we think you don't have one type of customer. Yeah. I think you have three different types of Right, right. Brand segmentation. Some people will buy.

Tim Shea (19:15.73) Tim and we think our LTD is $100. We're to make $100 over the course of their customer's lifetime. we say, we guarantee you it's not $100 because we think you don't have one type of customer. We think you have three different types of customers.

Some people will buy once a week. Some people will buy twice a year. Let's be honest, the people that you gave a 50 % discount to on Black Friday might be really fickle. Maybe you who were just buying a lot of really like unloyal customers, the folks that have bought from you in the last month, maybe we haven't given them enough time to buy again. So putting them in the data set might be unfair. And so there's a lot to unpack with LTV.

Neil Twa (19:49.233) Yeah. maybe we haven't given them enough time to buy again, so putting them in the data set might be unfair. And so there's a lot to unpack with LTV, but the basic idea is you're trying to build a good, solid relationship with a customer.

Tim Shea (20:02.012) But the basic idea is you're trying to build a good, solid relationship with a customer. And if you fail to do so, you can lose money on that first purchase and you can lose them over time. And you're going to have to go to your, you know, big customers to try and make up the difference.

Neil Twa (20:06.581) And if you fail to do so, you can lose money on that first purchase and you can lose them over time. And you're going to have to go to your big customers to try and make up the... Right. Yeah. That's a dangerous pitfall to be in, isn't it? When you're balancing medium, small, medium and large customers in that, that can be very dangerous for a service based company. Especially if the large ones leave and you don't have a basis of small. That's a...

Tim Shea (20:28.786) That's right. That's right.

Neil Twa (20:34.669) It's little insight from somebody who's felt that problem in the past. If you're working on the agency side. Do you have a social media account or something where people can find out more what you're doing, 100%. So yeah, my company is called LatticeWork Insights. Best way to find this is at our website, so latticeworkinsights.com. You can find me on LinkedIn as well. My name's Tim Shea. Folks who don't know yet. I think that, especially in the era of social media, it's super important to be collaborative. Anyone that's commenting on

Tim Shea (20:38.012) That's right.

Tim Shea (20:44.946) 100%. So yeah, my company is called LatticeWork Insights. Best way to find us is at our website, so latticeworkinsights.com. You can find me on LinkedIn as well. My name is Tim Shea. For the folks that don't know yet, I think that, especially in the era of social media, it's super important to be collaborative. Anyone that's commenting on posts, I'm always out there responding. I'm trying to put out super smart, helpful information for folks that are trying to like, you

Neil Twa (21:04.493) I'm always out there responding. I'm to put out super smart, helpful information for folks that are trying to up their game in analytics or up their game in terms of growth or help grow a more healthy retail and VSC brand. So yeah, I encourage people to reach out proactively and be collaborative. Well, it's been a great conversation, man. I appreciate it. And thank you so much for coming on and sharing a good word with us. I really appreciate it. All right, guys, remember, like, share, comment, engage, help us be big tech, as I always say at the end of this.

Tim Shea (21:12.228) up their game in analytics or up their game in terms of growth or help grow a more healthy retailer DSC brand. So yeah, I encourage people to reach out proactively and, down to be collaborative.

Tim Shea (21:28.86) Neil, really appreciate it.

Neil Twa (21:34.817) It's very important for you guys to remember to do something imperfectly and something perfect will happen along the way. Catch you guys on the next episode.

Tim Shea (21:41.682) Bye everyone.